⛵Carolyn Robistow on Gray Area Drinking and Brainspotting for Harm Reduction and Addiction

by | Dec 4, 2023 | 0 comments


This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors.

Joel Blackstock: So Captain’s Log start eight twenty twenty one three years the Crew has been brain spotted and the rations of water have been ravaged. I’m here with Carolyn robistow who is on a boat?

Carolyn Robistow: I am I’m on a boat shirt. Like I told you I would.

Joel Blackstock: and the for audio listeners, I’m actually not kidding about what’s going on video this time Carolyn is on a boat.

Carolyn Robistow: I am one of those it is not the star date. It’s a water boat not a space book.

Joel Blackstock: Do you keep the Captain’s Log do you have to the electronics do that for you? as a black box on boats, how does this work? I’m

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, and yes there so you don’t have to and speaking of I’m on a boat now the noisiest things are gonna be around me and trying to maintain minimal noises of struggles.

Joel Blackstock: authentic boat noises It’s a podcast of verity.

Carolyn Robistow: Sorry. Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. If anything is so loud,…

Joel Blackstock: It’s really strive for

Carolyn Robistow: it’s problematic. Just let me know and I’ll see if I can do something about it, so if you’re a licensed Captain, you have to keep a Captain’s Log neither of us are licensed captains yet,…

Joel Blackstock: Do you have a quail?

Carolyn Robistow: but Do I have a quill I have a pointer?

Joel Blackstock: Okay.

Carolyn Robistow: I have a brain spotting pointer. Always nearby. Does that count? Maybe you should put a feather on it.

Joel Blackstock: Right when you say you just is it a digital type thing of where you talk and whatever just in case the boat is found a drift.

Carolyn Robistow: I do I keep it on my iPad just because that’s where I take all of my notes for all of the things but I did get my husband a Branded bound Captain’s Log that has the boat name kind of, embossed on it. It’s really fancy.

Joel Blackstock: Is it driving a CDL truck today? They audit your log or you’re just supposed to have it if you

Carolyn Robistow: I don’t know because we haven’t done that in the’s Training. I’m sure when you get your captain’s license, they’ll tell you what you have to have it for but really for us it’s for just because we want to be able to remember and even then we talked about how we have been on the boat for close to three months now and already I’m like, where were we won that happened what was going on? Wasn’t that this person and it is all already running together.

Joel Blackstock: makes sense and Pirates, is that a thing like any boat related it is so we

Carolyn Robistow: It is a thing. Yeah. Yeah Pirates are thing. We’ve not been in waters where Pirates are we’ve done all of our traveling so far in the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway. So if you imagine A boat freeway that actually cuts through land that people really only are aware of it. They live in the area. And so there’s always been a slice of land and then the ocean we’ve not gone people kind of talk about it.

Joel Blackstock: okay.

Carolyn Robistow: Are you on the outside or the inside when you’re traveling and we have only thus far travel on the inside.

Joel Blackstock: What’s it called? When you go all the way up the coast and then down the Mississippi River and make a loop around half the country. There’s some Club of people that do the loop and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. yeah, we’re in that club. we’re starting it in the spring.

Joel Blackstock: Okay, but you get stuck certain places…

Carolyn Robistow: We’re in the club.

Joel Blackstock: where there’s not gas and Provisions like you have to prepare.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. Yeah,…

Joel Blackstock: That’s why all that.

Carolyn Robistow: it’s called the Great Loop. The club is America’s Great Loop Cruisers associate aglc out of something like that, but we are in it. But yeah,…

Joel Blackstock: I think that we have exhausted as much as I know boats right now,…

Carolyn Robistow: it’s a great group.

Joel Blackstock: but that is fascinating.

Carolyn Robistow: Me too.

Joel Blackstock: yeah, so Carolyn life coaches and brain spots and does a lot of cool work from a boat, which means that she can see you internationally or outside of Alabama unlike me, so I wanted to not only…

Carolyn Robistow: No.

Joel Blackstock: because I like her podcast and I like some of the stuff that she’s put out there but also make it available to people who email me outside of the state of Alabama and ask me to see them for brain spotting because if you’re in Alabama, there’s a little bit of a wait list for temperate and if you’re outside of Alabama, I’m sorry, but we’re not able to see you at all ever…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: but Carolyn can and she does, a lot of the same stuff but more specific stuff and then we do so that’s exciting can you go through a little bit of your approach in the services you offer and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: how all that stuff works?

Carolyn Robistow: Absolutely and my Approach. let me back it up. Just

Joel Blackstock: We always joke that there’s two therapy profiles that you can write and one of them is specializing in complex trauma for dissensitive trained in the CBT for the focals of the doctor,…

Carolyn Robistow: yes.

Joel Blackstock: whatever and…

Carolyn Robistow: Okay.

Joel Blackstock: then the other one is sometimes life is an ocean that becomes a beach but when it is a mountain the streams of our thoughts don’t meet the iceberg of our heart in the same way and they’re like the two big culture today.


Carolyn Robistow: They are I’ll tell you now that okay, here’s you mentally I’m gonna compose my psychology today profile because I don’t have one anymore. I took it down when I stopped seeing their clients and move just to coaching and…

Joel Blackstock: Psychology today tries to help you out…

Carolyn Robistow: but I think it.

Joel Blackstock: because instead of just right about what you do which they could Piss us up. They’re describe your ideal client and then it’ll tell you how they’re gonna format it. So when it smushes it together in a paragraph it kind of has the flow of good copy editing, but describe your ideal client.

Carolyn Robistow: Okay.

Joel Blackstock: Just such a funny phrase to me like Long walks on beaches.

Carolyn Robistow: we’re a dating site.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah. blonde hair teeth…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah

Joel Blackstock: what I like all my clients. Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah. I’ll tell you if I had a profile today. It would start in the immortal words of Elle Woods. after getting into Harvard Law What it’s hard? Except we’d be saying it about changing habits and our relationship with alcohol and perfectionism.

Joel Blackstock: I’m

Carolyn Robistow: I think those are kind of my main things but what I love specifically about How I woven in brain spotting with this, kind of traditional coaching work is that it does make it where people are God that was so much easier than I expected. Not that it makes it easy per se and this is so funny to use this phrase Because it is so often associated with drinking but I feel like brain spotting takes the edge off of this work. It just takes the edge off.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: So it’s not quite as Intense or hard for people to make the changes that they want to come and make or any type of sub quarter. I say brain spotting because it’s the one that I use the most but what I mean is any type of brain body based sub cortical focused.

Joel Blackstock: I think that’s my favorite line from Breaking Bad is where all the guys are sitting around in the basement. They’re don’t have any method everyone looks at him. He’s just enough to take the edge off. …

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, exactly brain fighting math just enough to take the edge off.

Joel Blackstock: but yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: But yeah, so that’s how I would start my psychology today profile. I think.

Joel Blackstock: I think there’s so many people assume that that’s about intellect or knowing something or having information or being told what to do or a list of steps. And I don’t know maybe in 1955 but at this point we’ve all seen The Sopranos we sort of have tuited the CVT. We sort of have intuited The Stereotype of psychoanalysis that arguably is psychoanalysis.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: We know that information.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: We just need our brain to feel different, I’m not drinking. cuz I sat down and did the math and then was like

Joel Blackstock: I don’t know how to count life. I keep losing. I can’t be on three. So who know, that this feels good. I feel bad. I come up with ways to feel good because that’s what my brain is designed to do and salt sugar fat dopamine like we …

Carolyn Robistow: Hit me.

Joel Blackstock: we seek it out and if something gets in the…

Carolyn Robistow: and…

Joel Blackstock: we find a way around it, so I mean if I No, no.

Carolyn Robistow: think sorry, I didn’t mean it as you were talking to I was like, yeah, there’s paragraph two of my psychology today profile, right because it’s broken into these three main sections is here’s what I know to be true is that people want to be moderate drinkers? that’s kind of what they aspire to as the kind of gold standard for healthy, But what I know to be true is that moderate drinkers do not actively moderate their drinking which to say it is an adjective to describe their behavior. It is not the verb they’re using to acquire the behavior. They’re not actively thinking. Okay. So if I had someone and

Carolyn Robistow: if I know I have an event on Friday and I’m gonna have four drinks in seven per week for women is kind of like the standard in the US the guideline, so I’m not gonna have drinks four days this week and then I’ll have the four on Wednesday, people who are truly moderate drinkers, which is to say they just drink when they want to and only when they want to and they never drink more than they want to They’re not actively doing that. It’s just hot. it’s like we’re looking at this result and then trying to codify how to make that happen.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, that’s kind of my experience is that no one’s actually doing the recommendation. They’re just figuring out that they don’t do the recommendation and then saying I guess I need to do the recommendation but then when they do therapy, they just stop most the time or…

Carolyn Robistow: in right

Joel Blackstock: cut back to Christmas whiskey at Christmas, but I just don’t know it’s on the people who’ve come in and…

Carolyn Robistow: right, and so

Joel Blackstock: I mean I don’t do what you do, but I just don’t know a ton of people that are like,…

Carolyn Robistow: right

Joel Blackstock: yeah, I’m drinking 30 beers a week. All right. Thank you. I got to three that.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: That’s fun. it just tends to just be something that you don’t need. Are you move on from or something, your relationship to it changes, which means that it’s not where all of your intellectual energy is going and that may not be your experience at…


Carolyn Robistow: right

Joel Blackstock: But I just don’t see a ton of people that are like, I’ve had my seven for the week. Restarting next it’s just like it’s not coming up if you’re doing it. No one’s doing the FDA recommendation.

Carolyn Robistow: Or they are using it. as sort of a prison for themselves and then they feel like they are a crappy human being when that does that doesn’t work for them to just say and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: so what I find most of the people I work with And they are not gonna seek out therapy for substance use issues because they don’t really qualify for Which quite honestly. Yes, we’ve got the DSM and we’ve got substance use disorder. But this idea of alcoholic is a self-diagnostic term. And so there’s this fuzzy space of …

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: do I talk like if I’m drinking the way the people around me are drinking Is that something I go to therapy for and the answer is not really?

Carolyn Robistow: which is why you’re saying you don’t see a lot of it right Most of my people either are therapists or have been in therapy or are currently in therapy and they’re in therapy to deal with the trauma and the relationships. and then there’s drinking is kind of this side thing where maybe we ask about it at intake and we as professionals clock it as not, substance use disorder and then it just kind of goes by the wayside.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, I don’t have a drinking problem. my therapist keeps bringing up my drinking problem.

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, or even their therapist probably maybe drinks at the same level they do and it’s like yeah, that’s fine so for my people what I love is there’s this spectrum out there that Jolene Park started and it’s or she didn’t start she Popularized it the kind of made it more common vernacular is gray area drinking which is kind of like this drinking between the gray area between healthy and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: and abuse or addicted and…

Joel Blackstock: When I like that…

Carolyn Robistow: the thing.

Joel Blackstock: because it isn’t people calling addiction one thing. I see on LinkedIn and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: it not festivals. What do you call them conferences all the time like the hardcore 12 step guys yelling at the non 12-step people about how both are wrong and…

Carolyn Robistow: 

Joel Blackstock: I kind of disagree with both of them, and it…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: but it’s like you can admit that Addiction is a problem. But not all addiction is the same, you…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: but it’s that fight about like that all or nothing and I know that 12-step you have to kind of buy into that in order to say sober at the beginning and some people need that but then there’s people that are angry that it’s extrapolated to everybody in gray area drinking just seems a lot more General like I’ve never brought that up to somebody and have them be like, no. Absolutely. I’m not a great area Drinker, usually And what?

Carolyn Robistow: I think where it gets confusing though is so now we can self-label as gray area drinkers at what point then do we ge? where is healthy gray area drinking? Where’s unhealthy? ray. It’s hard to say, right so I have pulled out a subset of the people in these now are the people I work with and then I work with a different group of people that we can get into but as far as drinking habits and alcohol goes there’s this subset of people that I call Groundhog Day drinkers, they’re in the gray area. So that’s kind of part of it. But another criteria that applies to them and there are three types of Groundhog Day drinkers, so I actually have a video I could share if anyone we’re listening. You’re like, I need that video they could just reach out to me and say can you send me the types of Groundhog Day drinkers video and I’ll send it but

Carolyn Robistow: when you’re a groundhog day Drinker, it It’s not about amount or frequency. It doesn’t matter how Long ago or how recent your last drink was or how many you had. It’s that feeling of Groundhog Day, which I love a good 90s rom-com and Groundhog Day is that 1993 Bill Murray Andy McDowell movie, right? And we’re

Joel Blackstock: they’re still making them as a genre. I don’t know. Have you seen the Little Italy? Yeah, okay.

Carolyn Robistow: Yes. Yes, it’s because it was like I was jumping on platform for just this idea. and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I love it. But it’s that idea. I call in Groundhog Day drinkers because it’s that idea of they have a drink however many they’re gonna have whether it’s a few or a lot or whatever but it’s that next morning waking up in that repeated. I just wish I hadn’t had that one or had that last one or had those extra or gone to that event at all. It’s that feeling of why can’t I just stick to my goals and that’s what makes a groundhog day Drinker. It’s not about because in I have been every type of Groundhog Day drinker. And if we have time for a soapbox, I will climb on this soapbox about what we’re getting taught about.

Joel Blackstock: please

Carolyn Robistow: That’s accurate, but the thing is about all of them. It’s not about how many you’ve had. if I had had one drink I woke up thinking. Why did I even have the one I just should have stuck with my zero if I drink a bottle of wine it was God. Why did I do that? I should have just stuck with the one I was gonna let myself have but that repeated morning of whatever I did is not what I set out to do and so that’s why I call him Groundhog Day Drinkers and I think that gives this subset of the gray area population something a little more tangible to say. Okay, so I’m in the gray area. How do I know if it needs addressing or not?


Joel Blackstock: So then how do you go about treating that if somebody comes in and that’s their experience?

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, so I have a three pillar approach that I call the trifecta of change because I love the word to infectious so much. It just feels good to me.

Joel Blackstock: It doesn’t mean it’s like three things together, Is it the same as triumphant? They’re different.

Carolyn Robistow: Is it I don’t know because I know that we’re trying for it. I’m former English teacher, So words are my thing.

Joel Blackstock: Okay,

Carolyn Robistow: I love it. But I feel like I could go down a rabbit hole of where words. Are the same and are not the same and what I love about Trifecta is this idea of three things that come together and make something powerful. and so in those three pillars, which kind of to answer your question of how do I treat it is we walk through these three pillars and part of The challenge is that the three pillars much like with trauma healing right are not a linear sequence where we don’t go? Okay, let’s do pillar one for two weeks. And then we’re gonna do pillar too. They’re not steps and having grown up in Houston. I always like in it to hurricanes would come through and we get all of these floods and then people would raise their houses and start to put pillars under the houses and…

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: you don’t just like Jack up one corner of the house. Six feet and…

Joel Blackstock: You have to do all of it at once.

Carolyn Robistow: then you have to do a little bit and then go around in a little bit more to each pillar and then go and add a little more to each color. So the whole thing slowly Rises so part of treating it is figuring out the nuances of how to add which pillar at which time because Groundhog Day drinkers are all different, right?

Joel Blackstock: So you’re saying that instead of doing steps like a hierarchy being able to do multiple things at once has a synergistic effect where they are all stronger. Yeah. I think I answered my question too.

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, thank you for saying that in such as succinct way for me.

Joel Blackstock: And that the triumvirate implies limitation on three on power like Rome and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: perfecta is the synergistic effect making them all stronger. So I was curious.

Carolyn Robistow: so everyone go take your SATs now and score high on the English because those words will be on

Joel Blackstock: Can you go through what some of those steps are how you work frame it…

Carolyn Robistow: yeah.

Joel Blackstock: where brain spotting comes into that, whatever you feel like supple.

Carolyn Robistow: Absolutely. yeah, tell me when to stop just cut me off when you need to. yeah,…

Joel Blackstock: I have my tea here that I’m drinking for the not drinking episode not only ever drinks but

Carolyn Robistow: it’s beautiful. There you go. Yeah. I’ve got my water.

Carolyn Robistow: I the first pillar and because you have to start somewhere even though it is released synergistic. The first one is the first one because it’s the easiest to put in place and does not have brain spotting in it yet and it’s just what I call. it’s the personalized daily support plan. Which for most people who so let’s just stick with and I don’t know when this episode’s gonna get published but we’re recording at a time where the holidays are about to hit in the US and New Year’s Eve is coming up New Year’s resolution, which historically for the Groundhog Day Drinking Community politics is also coming up…

Joel Blackstock: All it takes is coming up around the dinner table.

Carolyn Robistow: but also the idea of dry January is real big in the Groundhog Day Drinking community. and so What happens with dry January is everyone approaches it like this? Let’s just take a break from alcohol as a 30 day break a reset and I’m about to mix my metaphors and they get back on. We’ll get to that one in a minute. So what happens is people start to share strategies, right and they’ll say things if I want to drink I’m just gonna go for a walk and then a groundhog day Drinker will say, then this works for all of these people. They just take a break. They just cut it out for 30 days. And if they want to drink they just go for a walk and then when that person goes for a walk and then still pours a glass of wine. They think they’re the problem.

Joel Blackstock: 

Carolyn Robistow: When really the walk wasn’t the daily support they needed so we have to personalize the daily support which is true for all of our clients. Right true,…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: even up to extremely complex PTSD, we need to personalize how we’re Self-soothing. And so that’s the first pillar is I call it a values-based nurture plan where it’s almost in acceptance and commitment therapy type activity where we really hone down. What are the person’s values? And how do we build a support program out of their unique values? And what I think is great about that is that I’ve never seen two people have the exact same set.


Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: It’s a really easy way to individualize. So that’s the first pillar we put in because it is the easiest and the fastest to put it As we get our value based nurture plan and then we talk about okay, what does it look like to implement this plan? And then we build in the supports for implementing it and the second pillar of the trifecta is the subcortical change, which is This is where we learn how to do brain spotting and my clients because we’re not working on clinical things and they have the option to brain spot with me in a group which we’ll do every couple of weeks and I’m giving them guided audios and kind of a customizable calendar of okay do this self brain spotting. Exercise X number of times so it’s a very self-paced.

Joel Blackstock: Like a free spotting type exercises or something.

Carolyn Robistow: no because I am still using for sometimes five depending on the person really specific setups for it. but we are always coming at it more I say always but nothing’s ever certain in brain spotting. We are attempting most of the time to come at it from a resource place because it is self-lead brain spotting not clinician lead brain spotting and so we bring that piece in they learn the different setups. They do the guided. Audios. It’s almost like if you think about

Carolyn Robistow: a lot of people ask me. I don’t meetings are not what do it for me and I’m like, yeah. I don’t want to go to meetings either. I also don’t want to leave meetings. So I like in it more to a group fitness class.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: Where you don’t go in it at the beginning you talk to people because maybe them because you see them they’re all the time because you’ve all got class pass and you’re at the same classes all the time, but you’re not then telling them. Here’s what the workout was like for me. I was gonna order a cheeseburger last night. you’re not really sharing all of that. You’re just going in kind of maybe talk about. today. The goal is legs. We’re all gonna work on our legs, So maybe they come in and I say, okay today the goal is we’re gonna do the crocodile set up. So we’re all working on, creating one synergize story about around alcohol and then we do So it’s more like a workout class for your brain than it is like a meeting per se. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, I’ve heard that some places. I don’t think there’s one in Birmingham but I’ve heard from some people that live in other cities that there’s basically moderation groups where they just get around and talk about moderation and kind of health and trying to accountability without total sobriety.

Carolyn Robistow: probably Yeah, I’m sure I mean that’s kind of the beauty of the gray area. and the beauty of the ever connected age we live in right which you can jump online and find a community that matches what you’re looking for. And I think that’s what’s unique about my community of people too is I don’t work solely with entrepreneurs. I do work a lot with entrepreneurs and it’s that mindset of I want to get out of this unhealthy relationship with alcohol not because I want to necessarily have Stellar health or I want to

Carolyn Robistow: Beat an addiction which is true for some of my people but the vast majority are people who they’re just too F and busy trying to run a business to be held back by the ankle weight of alcohol, nobody’s got time and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: energy for that. They’ve got bigger things. They need to be accomplishing. So it’s

Joel Blackstock: I think when you get people to realize how much time it actually is taking up because it’s like …

Carolyn Robistow: God.

Joel Blackstock: Okay, there’s no Whatever and you realize you slept till this time and then the rest of the day was still kind of a waste because you’re not firing on all cylinders and now you’re behind for the week and now your sleep’s behind so you’re tired, like it just and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: I think too for people in the gray area, tiredness becomes a trigger but then alcohol makes you tired her but then it makes you wake up a little bit while you’re drinking it but then it still makes your quality of sleep terrible and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yep.

Joel Blackstock: it becomes this vicious thing and I don’t know if you go into a lot of the psycho education about the way that it works in the brain, but I think that’s one of the nefarious things about it and why it’s one of those drugs. It’s allowed, quote unquote…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: where a lot of them is that it’s a stimulant antidepressant a different parts of the brain at the same time. And so you’re kind of addicted to one half of it and…


Carolyn Robistow: Yes.

Joel Blackstock: then the other one is a problem, some of the time

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, and perfect segue thank you into the third pillar which that’s kind of between or oscillate and getting my head about more words now. Between informed decision-making and body decision making because the pillars the same either way, but it’s that idea of first we got to know these things if I’m having a glass of wine at night or a glass of whiskey at night because I think it helps me sleep. I need to get some updated information on that. but the problem that most of my Groundhog Day drinkers have is that knowing it is insufficient and that’s why we have this Groundhog Day phenomenon because as you and I know we learn in this one part of our brain and that information is stored in a different part than this intrinsic drive and

Carolyn Robistow: Even just to go back to and I don’t know if you have more updated stats on this. But how the decision making time or the action time between the subcortical and the neocort or the prefrontal cortex where subcortical is moving or amygdala? I guess is movement like Point zero three milliseconds, which I guess is …

Joel Blackstock: remember

Carolyn Robistow: 0.03 seconds, which I guess is 30 milliseconds. Versus 0.7 seconds for the top which is 23 times is I mean it’s lightning fast in the difference, but that’s 23 times as slow. Right? And so what I’ll tell people is that’s why alcohol the way you’re describing it too with this the vicious nefarious cyclist sleep is it’s like an ankle weight, right? we put two to five pound weights on our angles and we can walk around for 23 times that 230 minutes you may start to notice it maybe you wear it, for an hour. Try it for 23 hours. It’s gonna be a noticeable difference but it eats away very slowly when we’re Groundhog Day drinkers versus full on, high level substance use disorder. The impact is just a lot

Carolyn Robistow: I mean nefarious really is the right word, right because it’s so subtle, but it’s compounding. And so that’s why the third pillar is because is the informed decision-making and embodied decision making because we need to learn that information. And then we need that information. So we talked earlier and I know you and I talked kind of pre podcast about this on our phone call about the idea of the one continuous story and that being a solid way to describe it but not really sure scientifically how that’s working out other than neurons that fire together wire together, but That third piece being how do I embody information and it’s that difference between knowing something and knowing and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: so that’s the third pillar is take first of all, let’s get some stuff and let’s know it but then let’s know it. So that you act from that knowledge not just beat yourself up with the knowledge like a guilt stick later. on Groundhog Day

Joel Blackstock: When I think it’s that intellectual memory is tied to referencing the future and referencing the past,…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. Yes, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: but it doesn’t affect me right now, It’s like I’m gonna drink right now so that I don’t drink later on and that way I’ll get it all the way or whatever, you…

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, yes.

Joel Blackstock: but it’s not felt or experiential. It’s not invited.

Carolyn Robistow: Exactly exactly.

Joel Blackstock: It’s a Memory that we’re kind of referencing about something that isn’t my behavior right now, but everybody…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, thank you.

Joel Blackstock: who has their last cigarette for, five years or something.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah, exactly and very similarly how right now me that’s waking up wishing. I’m never gonna drink again. is not the same me that’s like At this level of drinking people aren’t crawling out of bed and pouring a drink. So it’s not happening at the same time. They’re not even wanting a drink until hours later when they’ve been fighting with the kids all day and running their business all day and are trying to finally settle down and quiet their business running brain, which …

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: you as a business owner know that’s a tall order to not take work home with you when you are so actively involved in a business, it’s very different than being an employee. And so then because there’s such a huge time delay in those two experiences like you said that information is not accessible.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah. Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: it appears to be Irrelevant in that moment. Even though it’s as relevant as anything else in the world could be.

Joel Blackstock: What’s not me in my reality that I’m thinking about? It’s what I did before that I feel bad about and what I’m going to do different tomorrow, but It’s not what I’m doing,

Carolyn Robistow: Right, right. Yeah. So those are the three pillars that’s how we end. So we do a little bit at a time on each one weave them all together and snap crackle pop the trifecta.


Joel Blackstock: And you do a lot of other stuff too. I mean, you don’t just see people who are doing great or drinking. I mean you do kind of coaching with other people or…

Carolyn Robistow: Correct.

Joel Blackstock: other types of issues.

Carolyn Robistow: I do my second biggest part of what I would call my I guess anyone can call it a case load right? I’m not to sound clinical is just really high performing folks who are dealing. So when I was practicing under my license, my specialties were anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder. So now I’ve just kind of taken that a few notches down and I’m working still with business owners at this point. Now they are not drinking because that’s kind of like the Order of operations or I say not They’re no longer a concerned about their relationship with alcohol. They’re at a healthy level and it matches what they want and they’re no longer actively moderating. They’re just either drinking or not drinking at what is the normal time for them?

Joel Blackstock: They’re doing what they want. And that’s lying up with…

Joel Blackstock: what they want to do.

Carolyn Robistow: Yes. Yes.

Carolyn Robistow: Thank And so then we work on things like People-pleasing healthy boundaries a lot of attachment stuff, but again, not the trauma end of it, which is hard. It’s a fine line to walk. Right and I know there are a lot of coaches out there who don’t take that line very seriously and they’ll end up doing trauma work even not as a licensed clinician. I have a huge, Soapbox about that.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I think if you’re going to be doing that level of work you need to be working with someone who is following all of the goal and State Licensing things in your area, and

Joel Blackstock: It is an important line but it is kind of a great one. it’s like trauma sort of in everything…

Carolyn Robistow: yeah.

Joel Blackstock: but when you’re really digging into something, how deep can I go you understand…

Joel Blackstock: what people get lost. But yeah you do here’s some coaches on Instagram talking about, stuff when it’s like what are you doing?

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: it gets a little cringy so

Joel Blackstock: and then the yoga starts coming out that that’s where I get really nervous is that it’s like, I got a lot of crystals in my office, but they’re not MediCal interventions, it’s

Carolyn Robistow: Right and I support all forms, whatever works for whatever person but if we’re gonna be talking trauma it needs to be someone with some sort of license. Just because there’s a governing body and…

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: and there are repercussions for the person if harm does come out of it. if you’re working with the coach you don’t really have a lot of repercussions.

Joel Blackstock: You’re bound by the laws that the person who receives the service has active in their state and you don’t know the laws of 50 states a lot of the time.

Carolyn Robistow: right

Joel Blackstock: So if I get online and I say that I’m a therapist and you receive services to me is a therapist and that’s a regulated term in your state. I mean, I think hypnosis is only regulated in all but it’s only three states. But I mean depending on the intervention you’re doing you can’t say you do it without a certain kind of license and you look at the Internet. It’s the wild west. Nobody even knows the laws that they’re breaking Which means when I used to do liability training with churches would go in and…

Carolyn Robistow: exactly. That’s my point.

Joel Blackstock: be like this is why you have to have the window here and whatever and somebody be like, but what if somebody has to be stop look in my eyes pretend I’m on a jury say what you’re gonna say and then they would be like,…

Carolyn Robistow: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: sit down and I mean my line is with clinicians at Tap Root is imagine that what you’re writing is being read in court. Would you still write that thing?

Carolyn Robistow: yes, and we say that with my group of friends that are out therapists, too, but I guess kind of what I was getting at So with that in my background and doing the work, I do as a coach we may not be coming in for that. But I am more than equipped to handle and recognize if and when it comes up so where it’s not like I don’t have to put the brakes on and be like stop.

Carolyn Robistow: We have entered trauma the area.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I cannot do this. I can continue to hold that space and let that process complete and then listen as a license clinician and not working with you under that license. What I know is that was a clinical something and then I can help them find the appropriate resources. So it’s a piece of a organizing that it’s out of the scope…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: what I’m practicing right now and be still being able to hold that as it comes up and not having it because I think it can be really harmful if it comes up with someone even let’s say as someone is not licensed and I’m not trying to knock other coaches by any stretch of the imagination but like you said the internet is the wild west, right? and so someone may

Joel Blackstock: I mean a lot of the people saying that they do coaching or not even license as coaches, they’re just think

Carolyn Robistow: There’s no governing body for it. even I have a coaching certification,…

Joel Blackstock: yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: but it’s because someone decided to make a coaching certification right there’s not

Joel Blackstock: Out of class. Yeah. there’s not a state or national board. That’s over what you’re doing.


Carolyn Robistow: Nope, and there’s no Ethics Committee for it that I’m aware of it.

Joel Blackstock: But I just mean that there’s people that are saying I’m a coach that decided that that was what they were gonna call themselves yesterday, Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, it’s a self-diagnostic label as well.

Carolyn Robistow: A coach is really All about best practices and he and helping people heal and will recognize trauma. came. Out they still might not be able to handle a person in that state and they may do more harm even with the best of intentions right? So, I think it’s one of the benefits.

Joel Blackstock: And you’re not there. you don’t know what happens when the person gets off. You may never seem again because they are doing teletherapy, so that’s it.

Carolyn Robistow: Right. not teletherapy telecoaching. Yeah, tell us something…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah tele coaching. Yeah, tell us something,

Carolyn Robistow: but yeah, so there’s just a lot of nuance to the work. So all that to say the other people I work with tend to be Really high performing people pleasing. Mostly business owners. We do a lot of brain spotting around perfectionism. healthy boundaries money Can I cuss on your back? Okay money money s*** and…

Joel Blackstock: area, please return beef I just feel like there’s enough podcasts out.

Carolyn Robistow: people wait.

Joel Blackstock: I mean, I’m not going on my way to be offensive or something. But I also have just had an ax to grind for a long time that I feel like mysticism and…

Carolyn Robistow: right

Joel Blackstock: psychology can be funny because it is hysterical and…

Carolyn Robistow: it is hilarious.

Joel Blackstock: that there’s all of these podcasts where here’s the 10 tips to stay healthy and Spring by eating broccoli. And you’re just like, I don’t want another one of those podcasts.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: Even the jungian people which are some of the, cooler therapist some of the time it’s like I think one of the reasons this yoongi in life was a successful. It’s just because they spoke English. I mean where you like other people and then they’re just like

Joel Blackstock: your office is Mr. Up all man. Come on

Carolyn Robistow: I think what happens too even just from a marketing perspective is that there are people who then aren’t gonna come in because they don’t have that chilled out Zend out Vibe where that speaks to them.

Joel Blackstock: yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: So they do need to be more of us who are like anyways, this s*** is freaking nuts,…

Joel Blackstock: I feel like it’s hard for business owners to find therapy sometimes…

Carolyn Robistow: right and we just

Joel Blackstock: because a lot of times the therapists are threatened by it or something, they view it as I don’t know the word for. what I mean? You see that energy come up.

Carolyn Robistow: yeah. It’s a power Dynamic that the therapist needs to address in their own therapy.

Joel Blackstock: I mean cuz I’ve done business. yeah, I mean

Joel Blackstock: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that again. And I don’t know that it’s like getting it done and leveling up. I think it’s knowing that you’re not done is the thing, I know where the shadow is in the room because I’ll tell you you…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah,

Joel Blackstock: it’s the version that’s like, no, I did CBD for six years. that’s …

Carolyn Robistow: yeah, and…

Joel Blackstock: where that shadow is there. Okay?

Carolyn Robistow: think too how beautifully and When I found the brain spotting Community, I was like these are my freaking people where have you been and…

Joel Blackstock: yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I think that the uncertainty principle is part of what makes it my people because I have an absolute hate relationship with uncertainty. I work with things that I worked with anxiety and OCD because those are experiences that I can really connect with and that just need to latch on and feel a sense of certainty and a sense of control over things. I have no control over and how healing is not how do I find better ways to control it but is rather how do I release control which is now we got to talk quietly about our crystals and releasing control, but at the end of the day, that’s what it really is. Are the uncertainty principle was a breaking game changer for me, and I hate it. I want no part of it. Let’s get the freaking worst and it’s the best at the same time.

Joel Blackstock: I think it may not be that kind of stuff that you’re doing. But with trauma therapy, I don’t listen a ton to what people are saying as much as …

Carolyn Robistow: right

Joel Blackstock: what they’re feeling and that’s the thing is you can figure out pretty quickly. Yeah, you’re afraid of not knowing what’s going to happen tomorrow. And guess what? You don’t know you might get hit by a bus.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: What does that do to you? What’s going on in your body? I hope you get by bus I’m saying let’s not talk about…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: what you’re in control of let’s talk about what you’re running from because I’m expensive and you like to change …

Carolyn Robistow: Right your plan by the hour friend.

Joel Blackstock: Yes, but people will map that somatically so quickly. I mean, they’re posture just shows you what happens to them and it looks like you’re wearing a Backpacker. It looks like you want to hide something or it looks like you want to just go and disappear and

Carolyn Robistow: Can I tell you? so interrupting during one of my

Joel Blackstock: No, this is an interrupting podcast. You want to push back?

Carolyn Robistow: Meow during one of my brain spotting sessions with my own therapists. And so just a little self-disclosure here. Most of my parts show up as cartoon characters as animated characters or childhood characters from Neverending Story So if they’re not animated, they’re still very like the luck dragon.


Joel Blackstock: Any anime in there? That’s kind of a gen Z thing.

Carolyn Robistow: No, no anime. That was never really my thing. it’s more up. I’m a zennial. So I’m in that Lake weird sweet spot, but it would be more like so then my backpack literally showed up as this little Disney character that clung on my back and…

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: I was like and just in that we know he was my backpack, but it’s just you said you could physically see a person when they had their backpack and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: had a somatic experience just you saying that I was like, my little backpack guy. And I can picture him and I’m like people who are watching the video she’s gesturing a lot.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, back before I did any kind of brain spotting or even EMDR or anything. It was doing a kind of meditation as a stuff and so whenever there was somebody who came in didn’t know that they were angry. I would just start doing the because it was all customized to you people. I thought I was going by Script or whatever but it was like what you could see the somatic thing, but I’d always just be like you’re walking in the woods and the straps of your backpack are very hard they’re digging into your shoulders. You feel it in your shoulder blades. You feel it in your knees. But only you can carry the backpack because you have to do it and you’re resentful and you build sweat and I’ll take the backpack off, it’s like because let’s see this make somebody feel the thing. You can see how it’s showing up somatically in their posture immediately and just help them start.

Carolyn Robistow: And that’s the Attunement and I get on that soapbox all the time with my so I’m a brain spotting consultant as well. So I’ve helped people go through the certification process, and I lead a free monthly consultation group on it. And so many of our conversations around it It’s not The setup is sexy. because it’s got this series of steps we can say

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: which setup is right for this and which setup is right for that and

Joel Blackstock: It’s the fun metaphor. Somebody came up with that. They’re proud of it’s cool sounding…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. and…

Joel Blackstock: but it’s not the work.

Carolyn Robistow: and it’s not the work and It’s the vehicle for the setup is the vehicle. The thing is the uncertainty and the attune.

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: anyways, I’m not gonna climb on that.

Joel Blackstock: The uncertainty on the behalf of the clinician too because like I’ve said this before…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, that’s…

Joel Blackstock: but it’s like I can.

Carolyn Robistow: who I was talking about for both of them.

Joel Blackstock: I can teach you how to hold the stick and I can teach you that when the pupil does this then you maybe need to balance a little bit or that you need to check and see if they actually are on outer all even though they’re saying they’re not on at all or…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: maybe it’s just whatever I can tell you all that but when the patient is liking it and going into the uncertainty and feeling a distressing. Thing that no one else has helped them connect with and you put the stick down because I don’t want to make people feel bad, you haven’t done your own work and…

Carolyn Robistow: remember

Joel Blackstock: you don’t know that there’s a good thing on the other side of the bad thing. I cannot teach you that go to therapy.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. yeah,…

Joel Blackstock: You’re not ready to Brand spotting.

Carolyn Robistow: and I would say on top of that. Maybe you’ve not had that experience for yourself and go get a practice partner and experience it because the second you have that you’re like, my God. I’m so glad that person did not move that pointer. I will sure I had that and I am a lot of times when I’m assisting with pi fry all will all share this experience because in my very first demo or practicum right was the outside window

Carolyn Robistow: And I looked everywhere except for that pointer. I mean I was all over the place but I always knew where it was and I always felt really appreciative that the person just held it there because felt it is the thing that kept me from flying into outer space which we would call, kept me from flying out of my window of tolerance or…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: moving in and out of dissociation, but it was like I needed it there more than I would have thought. once you find the eye position then there it is, but I needed that person to be holding that place. So I didn’t have to manage that. It was like I could go wherever and come back to it. And it was a really powerful experience.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: And so going back to having had that experience. I will hold that thing until the end of time and I’ll be like let me know when you’re ready for me to put it down and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I don’t know if you ever have this where and I don’t know if this is you two or they’re really always is a pointer within and reach for you. and I will be holding it and I’ll say, okay and just let me know when you’re ready and they’ll go. Okay, and I don’t know if they’re okay men. I’m ready or okay, I’ll let So I’ll hold it and hold it eventually be like you can put that down. I’m like, okay, I won’t put it down because I take so seriously not putting it down…

Joel Blackstock: these are the …

Carolyn Robistow: until a person is ready for it.

Joel Blackstock: yeah, they’re totally in control and they know that they’re in control,…

Carolyn Robistow: And…

Joel Blackstock: you’re holding the space.


Carolyn Robistow: similarly when someone says I need you to put that down and they mean it because they can’t like that is it being up is…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: what pushes them out of the window of Tolerance yet? I believe you. Away, it goes.

Joel Blackstock: Mm-hmm, and these are the ATT ones when the color of the yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: the colors that cool.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah that traditional point or two. and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: that what are you see as the place that?

Joel Blackstock: Therapy needs to go, you end up in brain spotting like you’re kind of describing the thing that I noticed where people who are open to brain spawning and get into it. Even if I know nothing else about them. I know that they were okay with something that wasn’t our hierarchical system of steps. If this happens then do that do the 12 movements and then I know that they’re going to be open and that’s generally going to be the kind of clinician that somebody’s asking for when they say, what’s the first thing to look for? It’s not that I mean branding works for an amazing amount of people. It’s one of the wider Nets out there, but even if you don’t need that exactly You’re going to end up with somebody who’s open to uncertainty, and…

Carolyn Robistow: And Attunement, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: open to just letting something happen where a lot of the models don’t make room and what do you see yourself and just the profession like heading, post that.

Carolyn Robistow: Whoo, that feels like a big question what I see myself trying to remember that in this maybe is not at all what you were asking but it’s where it goes, which is Case in point. I see myself.

Carolyn Robistow: Finding out more about the ways to make this accessible to people outside of the therapy room, which is kind of what I love about the coaching aspect and about how brain spotting doesn’t much very unlike lots of other modalities where the licensed clinicians have a lockdown on it. It’s not that way with brain spotting. For Better or For Worse you kind of depending on who you talk to, but I think that making it more widely communicated to people that it’s not only for trauma and I tell people too. Part of how I picked brain spotting and got into brain spotting is because I did not want to be a trauma therapist and I was a little baby therapist and I didn’t want to deal with trauma and everyone who is a therapist is laughing right now going hahaha that’s impossible at all stems from trauma, right and…

Joel Blackstock: Give people still say it, right?

Carolyn Robistow: so and I got into the therapy space and I was like* it turns out. Which goes back to even with coaching right? if you’re truly not hitting people where it hurts but getting deep in with coaching. You’re gonna bump up against a little bit of trauma. It’s really unlikely that you won’t which is…

Joel Blackstock: Here what informs your purpose in your life’s trajectory and…

Carolyn Robistow: why Yes.

Joel Blackstock: all this stuff you’re going to coaching for but there’s difference in understanding…

Carolyn Robistow: Yes.

Joel Blackstock: how that informs your life and making it conscious and really trying to dig into somatic chunks of stuff that is hard to get out of the subcortical brain.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: I mean, there’s just two different things. But yeah, you’re in conversation with it. It’s just

Carolyn Robistow: Right, right, so working with a coach who has that background and knows. Even what to do when you do butt up against the trauma, so what happened is I was having this realization of s* turns out I’m gonna be a trauma therapist because all of my clients have some varying level of traumatic experience that needs to be cleared out, right and my population also did not I work with a lot of people and by the time I close my practice a lot of my clients did realize they had trauma but when I was, early starting on there was a lot of not really Like no no,…

Joel Blackstock: yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: my life has been pretty good. Not a lot of traumatic things have happened, and then come to find out that.

Carolyn Robistow: Things that maybe the broader world would not have called traumatic, but were in fact very heavily traumatic for that person did take place.

Joel Blackstock: I think trauma is like so it’s become…

Carolyn Robistow: It’s subjective.

Joel Blackstock: what I like that trauma is more the focus of therapy now and gets brought up a…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: But I also feel like in doing that. It’s become too big of a word. And that there’s strange trauma.

Carolyn Robistow: and there’s yeah.

Joel Blackstock: There’s a cute trauma and there’s also just I know that half of I’m calling all this trauma because it’s become too big of a word but you wouldn’t have something in Iraq your buddy gets blown up. You keep re experiencing that as a flashback That’s trauma. Okay. I see Dad hit the wall one time and…

Carolyn Robistow: right

Joel Blackstock: almost hit me but then he never did hit me but I thought he might and I’ve got this strange trauma of that went on all the time. And so my body was ready for it, even though it didn’t happen, but I didn’t have the experience. I’m not allowed to have it. So it’s not dramatic.

Carolyn Robistow: Where your gas lighting yourself?

Carolyn Robistow: I’m having a reaction to something that didn’t really happen like self gaslighting which is a whole soapbox with me and CBT. But anyways,

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, so there’s that.


Joel Blackstock: What if we’re calling that strain trauma now, right, you…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: which I’m glad there’s room for that but then there’s also everybody said the family is normal and fun and this is what it’s good and it’s supposed to be like this but I knew that this wasn’t normal and fun or right, but I called it that with language in my head, but I knew something was wrong. for 18 years And now that is trauma too,…

Carolyn Robistow: I do well and…

Joel Blackstock: but it’s like we’re putting and then I could go on but you kind of what I mean there.

Carolyn Robistow: you’re making a case for my point, which was most of my clients did not recognize their trauma and so I was sitting there between EMDR and brain spotting going. Okay, which one? am I gonna set up shop with because I did not have the budget to do both.

Carolyn Robistow: I knew my people eleven so much and they are googlers and they’re gonna research the s* out of anything and…

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: I knew the second day Googled EMDR it was gonna be ptst veterans and all these things that we were gonna immediately dismiss them.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah. VA studies

Carolyn Robistow: Versus brain spotting they were gonna google and be like, I don’t really know it’s not really out there. So I then tried to really hard tackle the SEO in my area for brain spotting and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I dove straight into it because I wanted to be the first person to speak it into existence for them.

Joel Blackstock: The biggest variable for SEO is time, too.

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, so that I could speak it in a way that made it not about the trauma yes, it does that but it’s so much more than that. I think that’s true of all these important because people will be EMDR is great for all that too. I’m saying if you Google it. Good luck.

Joel Blackstock: Mm- Yeah,…

Carolyn Robistow: So that was…

Joel Blackstock: yeah. …

Carolyn Robistow: that was how kind of I got led to brain spotting.

Joel Blackstock: the rigidity of them model too like the EMDR. I mean one of the reasons that I left is that I was saying ham noticing that the pupil wibbles here and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: that the person has a reaction on that spot. And when I stopped there they visualize things from the experience do the 15 movements. They’re holy and handed down by Shapiro and you can’t change the 15, and it’s like why am I paying for $300 an hour for a consultation or you’re telling me the number 15 over and over I can read

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: and there’s no ability to evolve, and she’s

Carolyn Robistow: I did and I know many EMDR therapists who are evolving with it. And I think that’s amazing. I just think when people like you and David came out and said, hey, I’m noticing this. It sounds like It’s a shame right?

Joel Blackstock: he did that as a yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: It’s a shame that you weren’t met with more curiosity.

Joel Blackstock: Was but Shapiro said if you change EMDR you’re not doing my EMDR, you…

Carolyn Robistow: which is true,…

Joel Blackstock: whereas David said this is supposed to go on and…

Carolyn Robistow: but Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: change and so, the free spotting people can say they do brain spotting but evolve dmvr,…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: according to the founder is not EMDR.

Carolyn Robistow: And I don’t know I got out of the rabbit hole of EMDR so I can speak to what my understanding is, but it’s all gonna be opinion not informed decisions,…

Joel Blackstock: .

Carolyn Robistow: which again is my third pillar so I try not to do it. But yeah, I do. that was how it’s done. I say I stumbled into brains one. That was how brain spotting chose me is because I needed something that my people were not going to Google and immediately dismiss because they were already dismissing the fact that they had trauma not dismissing, but they were already

Carolyn Robistow: on the state taking a stand of that’s not what I’m here for. I’m not here to process trauma. I’m not having flashbacks because they weren’t having what flashbacks look like in the movie, But gosh that was a whole long conversation that’s done out of us. Just talking about who else do I work?

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, …

Carolyn Robistow: So that’s it.

Joel Blackstock: but I think brain spawning you find the more things in the file…

Carolyn Robistow: Those are my vote.

Joel Blackstock: because there is this openness even…

Carolyn Robistow: Mm-hmm

Joel Blackstock: if Google’s EMDR and they see somebody say you can use EMDR for creativity and that’s result number one on Google. You’re still sitting there being like what do you want to treat? Where do what is it? how’s that affecting you what’s the bad experience? what’s the thing with brain spawning? It’s just kind of like, I don’t know feel the energy look at a stick and then your brain is just smarter than any analyst. It’s smarter than any patient you’re deep brain will tell you what it is. And sometimes we really want it to be page one of the file and we’re just talking about that and talking about that and CVT or something and then you just go for a minute and get the front of the brain out of the way and brain spotting is here’s all the other paper in that final man. It’s a lot of other things are on that same you feel trapped,…

Carolyn Robistow: Yep,…

Joel Blackstock: Network.

Carolyn Robistow: which Full Circle is so true around alcohol, people think it’s just about I don’t want to Crave it and…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I want to not have a craving and that it is so woven in and it is a web in Social relationships and family relationships and our relationship to our business and our bodies and it’s so woven in it’s really hard just to say I just don’t want to Crave it or I’m just gonna take a break. That’s I know and I’ll wrap up soon. That’s one of my main soap boxes that I get on and…


Joel Blackstock: brother

Carolyn Robistow: I have an in addition to what type of Groundhog Day dream for. I do have another free training I can share with anyone who’s interested but where I talk about three of these points, but one of my main points is If we’re going to take a 30 day break from drinking.

Joel Blackstock: 

Carolyn Robistow: That to me and we’re gonna call it a reset and yes, there are physical things that happen in those 30 days like that is undeniable. But to me that is and we’re gonna finish the 30 days and then say, okay now I’m gonna go towards moderating right because I’ve realized I don’t need it. I don’t want it as much I’m much healthier without it. I feel so much better. But the problem is we’ve effectively taken our Dirty Laundry shoved it in the corner for 30 days and said, yeah I don’t smell it. I don’t have to look at it like it.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: I don’t have to deal with it. But the laundry still not clean we didn’t actually solve the problem. We just shoved it in the closet for 30 days and then when we get it back out To then say now. These clothes are clean it’s a damn lie is what

Joel Blackstock: I mean what happens is you’re tolerance went down. So you’re drinking less just because it’s affecting you more and it’ll take three months for it to creep back up. And then January’s here again, Yeah, I yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: And then you’re on Groundhog Day. mic drop

Joel Blackstock: I don’t know. it’s interesting too because the younger Generations things maybe could change but the data is stayed pretty consistent that people drink less and they’re certain things …

Carolyn Robistow: They’re savvy.

Joel Blackstock: they’re risk-averse. I mean some of it I think is that whatever you call it Delta, 10 or whatever, but they can get marijuana easier some of them but there’s a risk averseness. And you just looking at market trends and things things like wine when boomers are not drinking anymore wine is gone as an industry. There’s the only sectors that have grown for five years are investment bottles over $300 a bottle and buzz balls that you get at a gas stations that are under five,…

Carolyn Robistow: But when we think about the genius of alcohol as a money-making franchise or…

Joel Blackstock: .

Joel Blackstock: Mm-hmm

Carolyn Robistow: a money-making company way to do it when you start to realize the number of conversions you’re about to have is going to decrease you better increase the price of every conversion and sell the more expensive stuff to maintain that I think I mean business-wise.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: It is astounding I am in all the admiration for the industry, but I think what you’re talking about too with the younger generation, or I guess they’re not even that young anymore, but I’m just that old but exactly that there’s this savvyness…

Joel Blackstock: Now they’re old enough that they could be drinking if they want to do some of them legally now.

Carolyn Robistow: because it’s the similar to those of us who grew up when the studies were able to tell us that smoking was actually not healthy for we have that now,…

Joel Blackstock: mmm

Carolyn Robistow: we’ve got more hardcore evidence that alcohol just really hasn’t zero health benefits and any that we get touted or…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, you’re absorbing the benefits When you study it of socialization extraversion community and…

Carolyn Robistow: just negligible.

Joel Blackstock: then there’s a secondary effect, but every time they try and generalize it just to alcohol you can’t it?

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: It’s not good for you.

Carolyn Robistow: no, and that’s why I get on my soapboxes because I know that there are people who it’s not bad enough that they want to go to therapy or they want to go to therapy for their trauma and they’re paying A zillion dollars an hour which is well worth it. Right but they’re picking and choosing what needs to come up in that hour and…

Joel Blackstock: again

Carolyn Robistow: it’s the trauma and the drinking is just kind of this other side thing where it’s not problematic enough to Warrant therapy time, but it just nags that their brain and they end up on that Groundhog Day where it’s like Okay, I’ll try again today. Okay dry January is coming up, so

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, and there’s a lot of people who I think genuinely want to work on that but they’re not at the place where they need 12 step to be alive or employed or married or whatever and they’re afraid that if they go to a therapy office and say that they’re gonna be told you have to go to AA and come back. You’re not ready commit, whatever and yeah. I…

Carolyn Robistow: yeah.

Joel Blackstock: maybe that’s right some of the time not every therapist. He says that to somebody they didn’t need to hear it but there are people who I think avoid therapy because they don’t want to hear that and If they need something else, I’m glad it’s there.

Carolyn Robistow: Thank you. Yeah, that was said yeah and it’s important to me to be part of how there is something else there for them. Not to take away from any of these other methods,…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: but just to add and say there’s a subset of people who even if that were right for them. They’re not going to do it. So we need to get them in another way. Yeah.


Joel Blackstock: The only out that you were working on or that you would like to talk about. I mean brain spotting and gray area drinking or kind of what you’re loud and proud about on the internet, but there are other they kind of insights or questions I don’t know. I’m trying to keep these open ended. up at the uncertainty principle

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. No, I mean I get loud and proud you’re right. You’re right. sh, don’t I will go all day on that mostly that and then like I said the perfectionism in the business ownership thing and how a lot of it to me is people end up buying these Erin Condren planners and overhauling their schedule to try and be their most productive version of themselves, especially business owners because we want to be able to walk away from work at the end of the…

Joel Blackstock: We have this CEO cult,…

Joel Blackstock: like the master class thing or they’re like, I want to get into play writing. I need to buy 12 hours of David Mamet talking or something and it just kind of like we just have this weird thing or I don’t know. Why would you want to be Steve Jobs? that’s it.

Carolyn Robistow: Yes, yes.

Carolyn Robistow: 

Joel Blackstock: So many people I get that there’s aspirational things about these people but there’s a lot of that kind of like, The Cult of the executive that is not healthy,

Carolyn Robistow: absolutely and a lot of that was about to go straight back to alcohol. You’re right. It isn’t the thing. I’m most loud and proud about because I think it’s the first Domino that needs to fall before these other things fall in place but to go back to this idea of Business ownership, I have a friend I know who she calls it for her clients. They want to be time rich and so that’s why they aim for the CEO mindset right? Because then it’s time wealth. I started my business so I could have

Carolyn Robistow: I could afford the lifestyle I want and…

Joel Blackstock: Don’t have it. Later.

Carolyn Robistow: I don’t have to be Tethered to my business right versus that hustle startup mindset.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: And so I don’t want to still her terms, but I was just like, you nailed it. And so a lot of the business owners I work with they get in their own way with the perfectionism and the overthinking and then they want to color code a calendar because it’s then I won’t procrastinate procrastination is a huge thing. I brain spot with a lot of my clients is the business owner ones is the procrastination because we look at it similarly too, not necessarily A trauma, but yeah or it’s like there’s some sort of thing in you that saying don’t do it like anything but that right it’s a very visceral response.

Joel Blackstock: Or an anger so much of that avoidance is there’s an anger that you kind of don’t like what you’re doing or how you’re doing it or your relationship to it,

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, and then what happens is people try to figure it out. am I angry at it? Is it because I’m afraid of success am I afraid of failure? But all of those questions are in your top brain and that is not where you need to make the switches. We need to get in the brain and body to make the switches. So that’s kind of the next level of work I do with people is okay. We’ve dealt with the alcohol now, let’s deal with any Ling. perfectionism procrastination stuff

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, we think emotionally our thoughts come from emotion and then we figure out what they are with thinking but we pretend it’s the other way around.

Carolyn Robistow: Because it feels good because that’s a sense of control. Yeah. That’s…

Joel Blackstock: It feels like I’m in control more than I am. But then we do it.

Carolyn Robistow: why I love and…

Carolyn Robistow: hate uncertainty.

Joel Blackstock: But we do it the opposite when we’re dealing with Society things…

Joel Blackstock: because that also makes us feel in control people pretend that politics is about values or something and I think it’s about material reality. Whereas with your body in your brain, what you’re thinking has so much more to do with what you’re feeling and then you are not just rationalizing that that sounds like it’s too reductive or writing an off too much but you’re figuring out what that is later. But I mean just look at the way that the brain is wired and Feeling first before you are in language or in time. so start with that and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: and we pretend it’s backwards that now I’m just going to think my emotional way. I’m going to solve an emotional problem. It’ll actually by talking about it and then eventually I’ll feel different. and

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, and there are people who because they thought about it differently. Not because they thought about it differently. They thought about it differently somewhere something shifted and they mistakenly assumed that was why it shifted and…

Joel Blackstock: Yes.

Carolyn Robistow: so we’re giving it the credit when that was a coincidence or a springboard for something else to happen if that makes sense. And so it gets the credit sort of Listen, I really am like a soapbox person aren’t I learning so much about myself on your podcast so much the idea that dry January gets the credit for a reset for drinking when really it’s not like we’re giving the credit to something that didn’t do anything.

Joel Blackstock: Go off Queen.

Carolyn Robistow: It was a vehicle…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: but it didn’t do the thing. we have to figure out what did the thing and then focus on building that skill which I think is…

Joel Blackstock: Yeah,…

Carolyn Robistow: what you’re saying.

Joel Blackstock: I mean analytical therapy is where that happens. I mean everyone’s just say you just let them talk…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.


Joel Blackstock: until they feel and they’ll say it doesn’t matter what you’re saying. We’ll say the same thing and then all of a sudden they’ll feel it or something and I remember

Carolyn Robistow: I love a good yellow quote. I love a good yalum quote.

Joel Blackstock: What there were I remember listening to 70s Union analysts tapes they were digitized when I had them in college, but they were literally ripped off cassette tapes and you could hear the rewind scrub and stuff, but one of the things like they would all agree on that at the time. I was like, what are you talking about? And now it makes sense was that the patient only changes in this place in between being awake and being asleep and you see them in the room for two years mom made me feel small anyway because of this mom made me feel small and all the sudden mom made me feel small and they felt it and…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: brain spawning takes you into displacement between waking and asleep but a lot of people feel like they’re going to sleep or their clock stops and they lose time, it’s that part of the brain that is informing what we do but the ego is so afraid.

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: To let go and admit that it isn’t in control, you…

Carolyn Robistow: Mm- Yes,…

Joel Blackstock: Which is the uncertainty principle again?

Carolyn Robistow: pretty yes and again that goes back to that third pillar of the trifecta, right which is there is a difference between knowing something and knowing it and that’s the same thing you’re talking about is like I can say it and say it and say it and then one day I freaking say it and I feel it when I say it and so how do we facilitate that process?

Joel Blackstock: and I think when people get a self-help book or they go on a certain kind of religious or secular, life change course kick or Executive coaching whatever that’s so much of the thing that actually happens is it gets you outside of yourself enough to have some perspective and then it looks like it was the 17 step for Success, tier that you got to spend $5,000 to get the blue scar for whatever but really you just saw yourself differently because you did something different and that could be free or…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. Yeah,…

Joel Blackstock: a lot less and

Carolyn Robistow: it could and I think it’s out there for free and I think there’s enough about putting in the work I do out there for free that someone could probably piece it together for themselves and make it happen and I’m happy about that and what I virtually basically sell is I can walk you through it a little bit faster than you’re trial and error method of figuring out how to make it work.

Joel Blackstock: yeah. Yeah.

Carolyn Robistow: And I think that’s true of therapy. that’s not always true there because we don’t heal in a vacuum and we need that relationship and that Rapport I think is really important. But that’s true of CBT. Let me put it and…

Joel Blackstock: the models.

Carolyn Robistow: that’s DBT, but I think you can see BT yourself if you have the right information, but

Carolyn Robistow: It’s a lot of guests in check and trial and error and then of course there’s CBD is not the part of the brand we want anyways, but it’s an analogy.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah,

Carolyn Robistow: Anyways, okay,…

Carolyn Robistow: we should start wrapping it.

Joel Blackstock: No, sure.

Joel Blackstock: I want to be respectful of your time. I can…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Blackstock: then let you go. yeah, and I don’t know I think that’s true though the way that the models of therapy that are actually new because a lot of them, you’re just kind of putting something and in new paper whatever but the ones that are actually new is where somebody you can see the therapist right this and this and this and this and none of it worked and then they did this thing that works for them and then they were like, what was that? How do I say it and how do I replicate it? And then today, you have Eric Ericson or something like and like that They’re all attempts to go back to the place where you healed and then share it with other people when they’re genuine, and the call the Cults are the exploited modalities are the ones…

Carolyn Robistow: said

Joel Blackstock: where somebody is.

Joel Blackstock: Appropriating the language of healing and change to and somebody who hasn’t done. It can’t tell the difference. So, of course they’re gonna

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. very well said I like that make that a sound bite.

Joel Blackstock: Yeah, I’ll send you a little clip. I really appreciate you coming on…

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah.

Joel Blackstock: if people want to get your services or find out more about you like your free consultation group if they’re provider. what do you want them to go? We can link to anything in the show notes. So definitely check those out but we want to tell us some places where we can find out more about what you do and definitely tell us about your podcast. we want to

Carolyn Robistow: Yeah. So the easiest way to find me the fastest is probably Instagram and I’m just at Carolyn robistow. I say it’s the fastest because it’ There’s no hyphens or anything just it’s my name go find me and every other way under the sun to connect with me is on there in some way shape or form. So it’s kind of like the easiest One Stop Shop and Including my podcast. My website is Carolyn robistow, but it’s dot net.com. I slept on that. I actually got rid of that palm and then I couldn’t get it back and I was like, there you go. That’s what happens but My podcast is called brain unblocked. And if you thought this was a soap box boy. I tell you what, there’s some odd episodes over there plenty more soap boxes about it. Come join me.


Joel Blackstock: We’ll link to all of that stuff and if there’s anything else Send it to me and I’ll link it in the show not so I can turn the recording.

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